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Talk:House of Winton
Consorts Consorts and Michael needed.--dotz 18:04, 7 October 2008 (UTC) ::Then threw them in there. --Farragut79 00:55, 8 October 2008 (UTC) :::If that's okay with you, I'd like to rewrite this article, giving it the form of a family tree. The list we have right now is basically a list of Manticoran Kings and Queens, and we already have that one covered by the Monarch of Manticore article. The consorts and crown princes should be listed in their own articles (like (Monarch's Consort of the Star Kingdom of Manticore and "Crown Prince/Crown Princess of the Star Kingdom of Manticore". -- SaganamiFan 11:48, 8 October 2008 (UTC) :Sounds Good. --Farragut79 13:40, 8 October 2008 (UTC) Copying of Wikipedia material The copying of the list from Wikipedia does not make sense to me: it is written in the wrong tempus, and the whole point of the Honorverse Wiki is that here we have the space to create individual articles on the different subjects, and do not have to use these overgrowing list articles from the WP. -- SaganamiFan 22:52, 12 April 2009 (UTC) :I agree, when I read Piotr's statement, I did not feel the need to have to update the Wikipedia Honor Harrington, when the Honorverse Wiki is supposed to more in depth, rather than just a summary of the universe. --Farragut79 03:21, 13 April 2009 (UTC) ::Well, in my oppinion complete list in form of article is better than incomplete list in form of category, so at least 'cats list from Wikipedia is suitable here. I am going to create also lists of commissioned officers of some navies.--dotz 07:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC) :::I agree completly that lists on certain important aspects and subjects are all right, but I think they should be limited to listing and basic information, like the Monarchs and their reign dates. But the Wikipedia article on that topic which had been copyied here simply listed everything known about a certain monarch in the list, and that is something we don't need since we have individual articles on every character. A list should give an overview, not be cramped full of details that belong somewhere else. :::Because of that, I agree with Farragut that it will be very difficult to make WP and Honorverse Wiki "correspond" with each other. -- SaganamiFan 13:07, 13 April 2009 (UTC) :::Also, I would still like to improve the Category Pages, so that each of them has at least a small header describing what the category is all about. And I will try to spend some time adding missing categorizations to exisiting articles. If there is an extra list on something, it should so be interlinked with the corresponding category... -- SaganamiFan 13:16, 13 April 2009 (UTC) :I am not saying that the Wikipedia's articles are not good, but let's not just be a copy of the Wikipedia stuff, and make it our own creation. On the Wikipedia, if we went in and put, for more information please see the Honorverse article, that would be a whole let better, because if we constantly linked our stuff with theirs, then we are saying that an Wiki of Everything has more precise information than a dedicated Wiki. --Farragut79 14:19, 13 April 2009 (UTC) ::As I explained here, I am slowly migrating some content form Wikipedia, where it is deemed unnotable and is being deleted. I fully agree that Honorverse wiki should be much more then just a copy of Wikipedia content, but there are some Wikipedia articles that on Honorvese content that are better, or at least have more info then articles here. I think our goal should be to minimize the chance people will duplicate efforts by creating articles here and there, and make it easy for people to find relevant content, no matter which wiki they start with (preferably with some links/redirects from Wikipedia to here). --Piotrus 03:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC) :Understandable, and I agree. --Farragut79 05:05, 14 April 2009 (UTC) ::I absolutely do not oppose the interaction of content between WP and the Honorverse Wiki. What I do oppose is the simple copy&pasting of content from Wikipedia, for several reasons: ::1. As said before, we have a number of editing conventions, which include detailled referencing, a certain tempus, and naming conventions. An article should at least be edited in that way before its content is copied here. ::2. As it is a wiki entirely about the Honorverse, our structure is very different from Wikipedia's Honorverse articles: We have no need of list articles where all important content is listed on a 15,000 kb + page. A list article in the Honorverse wiki should list the subjects and link to them. If we put everything in over-long list pages where the table of contents alone is to screens long, the whole purpose of creating an own wiki is nullified. ::3. I can understand the argument that sometimes the WP content is better, but sometimes it isn't. Some of it is very badly written and at least unprecise. I even recognized a number of paragraphs where text has simlpy been copy&pasted from the novels, and that, my friends, is a copyright violation. ::4. The "minimization of efforts" is also a two-edged sword: there are always errors creeping in, and I sometimes deliberatly didn't copy the WP article or paragraph and wrote something on my own, because the WP stuff was so badly written, researched or structured that it was easier to create something new than to clean up the mess. ::Once again, I agree that when WP has the better info, it should be integrated into our articles, but according with our editing conventions and article structure. I will now change the copy&pasted list of Monarch accordingly, and I would be very thankful if we could all try keep redundancies low and style high. -- SaganamiFan 10:28, 14 April 2009 (UTC) Changes on the article I just did the changes mentioned above, and what I found there underlines everything I just said: names were wrong, a number of typos were in it, and some of it seems to be directly copied from The Universe of Honor Harrington. A large part just retells things that are already mentioned in a dozen other articles - the text was even redundant in itself at at least one point! Please, people, tell me now if this is how we're gonna do things, because then I will go look for something else to spend my time! -- SaganamiFan 10:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC) PS: I also shortened the list again; the argument that the list is more complete is completly senseless as there are individual articles for the monarchs. -- SaganamiFan 10:56, 14 April 2009 (UTC) :I hope Piotr will read SaganamiFan's statement (from ESN article can be splited its HR matters, I'll fight against my infodumpism :).--dotz 16:03, 14 April 2009 (UTC) ::I read the Wikipedia Copy, and I agree Saganami. The articles are redundant to what we have, and need to be formatted to our style before being placed on their respective articles. I, also, agree that the Wiki's articles are not better, maybe some of them on par, but not certainly better. i remember Dotz continuously editing and re-editing his Wiki transplants. Yet, to just copy it and leave it is not acceptable. Saganami, I support you and your efforts, so please stay. Piotr, you will need to conform your contributions to our style. --Farragut79 16:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC) :::Don't worry, Farragut, I just sounded a little rough because I was in a bad mood. After all, it's not Piotr's fault that I had a crappy day ... I don't want any bad feelings anywhere, and I don't wanna blame anyone. After all, we're all the same kind of nerds here, and I really have fun working with all you guys! :-)) -- SaganamiFan 17:13, 14 April 2009 (UTC) ::::I appreciate that this lively wiki has evolved standards that are different from Wikipedia. One day I'd love to master them :) For now, my goal is to ensure that the reader (who is, after all, our ultimate target) will be able to easily find useful content no matter which site he starts on, and also to ensure that H-fans who edit Wikipedia will easily be able to find out about this wiki. I will be moving some more content from Wikipedia in the coming days, and I will try my best to make it fit in the articles. If you decide that this content is redundant, or similar, I will not oppose if its removed. That said, I will disagree with one point: I think big lists and overviews are helpful, and I do think that this wiki's main weakness is their lack. PS. I also think that the list of monarchs looked better with more dates and at least a basic description (as in this version). --Piotrus 05:17, 15 April 2009 (UTC) :::::Thanks for answering, and I hope you accept my apologies for the rude tone - as I said before, it was a crappy day... :::::As for what you said about the Monarchs list, I'd like to offer a compromise: I always like to keep lists of content that is more detailed in the linked articles to be as viewable as possible - that means, make them fit on the viewscreen ;-) but of course there is the notion that some content should be added for overview. We do have the article Monarch of Manticore, and I think we could make the list there are little more detailed, with at least the AL dates and small descriptions or important events of the monarch's reign. Belongs there more than here anyway. And it would keep the two lists from being redundant, and you all know how much I hate that :-)) :::::The translation of PD to common era dates is a little different, since we try to write from an In-Universe perspective were CE dates are rarely used; That's why I like to link dates to the Timeline, because it explains the Honorverse date system. -- SaganamiFan 09:35, 15 April 2009 (UTC) ::::::Having a short list linked to a more detailed list is a good idea. I certainly appreciate the evil of redundant info (which is actually one reason I want to merge some Wikipedia content here). --Piotrus 19:16, 16 April 2009 (UTC) Alluded members There are a number of RMN ships name for princes and princesses, likely also members of the Royal family: Prince Adrian, Prince Charles, Prince Malachai, Prince Nicholas, Prince Stephen, and Princess Alicia. -- SaganamiFan 13:32, March 22, 2011 (UTC)